Akai s-3200XL + Gotek + HxC

mondo1976
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Re: Akai s-3200XL + Gotek + HxC

Post by mondo1976 »

teevee wrote:The cable look exactly like that, please see picture above (If it works).

2. Why would the HxC give me a different message on the 3200XL screen compared to the normal floppy drive and no floppy at all?
3. I asked another friend who had an Akai s-3000XL and he said that he gave up the floppy drive as the maschine rejected all his floppies, while SCSI was smooth operation.

I will give it a try with “Generic Shugart” HFE file Interface mode and S1 (Jumper setting).
• If ribbon cable is connected normal (not reversed), then the small front led light is dimmed and we receive the “Drive Not Ready ! Disk removed?” message
• If I reverse the ribbon cable, then the led light is normal and we receive the ”No disk” message.
Well, there are all sorts of potential issues at play here. The seller can't be 100% trusted as he has motivation to say it was working (obviously), plus--now that the pictures work--I'm very inclined to say that at least the floppy cable is not stock, if not the floppy drive.

One reason is that floppy cables with such a hardwired twist are usually connected with the untwisted end on the motherboard and the twisted end is connected to either a single or the first floppy drive (out of a max of two that can be connected). The cable twist on the motherboard is unorthodox.

Is the floppy cable double-ended or triple-ended? In other words, there should be a straight end, a twisted-end, and possibly another straight end.

What brand/model is the floppy drive? This will tell us if someone naively tossed some generic PC drive in there, etc.

Usually what happens when the floppy cable is mis-pinned so that pin 1 is NOT facing the power connector is that the activity LED on the floppy drive is stuck on. The drive powers up and the LED is stuck on, but there is no way for it to work because all the data lines are in the wrong places.

If the floppy cable is reversed at the motherboard end then reversing it on the floppy end too will obviously reverse the reverse (making it straight thru again).

The Gotek is configured by the DS0/DS1 jumper and through its interface type, so it's behavior is variable. The floppy only behaves one way because its signals are always the same no matter what. It will be stuck at DS0 or DS1 (PCs @ DS1, others may be DS0, especially in samplers) and the ready / diskchange / density select, etc. lines cannot be altered. The Gotek pins can act any number of ways--which is what makes it super-awesome.

I would personally do this:

Take the floppy cable end with no twist and put it on the floppy connector on the motherboard, making sure the striped line goes to Pin 1 (which should be indicated by a number silkscreened onto the motherboard). See if the pins on the floppy drive are explicitly numbered, and put the striped line of the twisted end on Pin 1, if not, put the striped line closest to the power connector.

See if the LED stays stuck on. It will probably not be on, but the drive won't be recognized--at the very least because of the twist--and also because it may be a PC drive with the wrong signals.

If the LED is stuck on then reverse the cable at the floppy side. That should be the proper orientation.

Now it depends if the drive is compatible or if it's just a generic PC drive. If it's a PC drive then you should abandon the drive and focus on the Gotek.

If it's not a PC drive (and you want to test with it or use it in the future) then CAREFULLY take apart the floppy cable connector on the twisted side, CAREFULLY undo the cable twist, CAREFULLY push the cable back on the "teeth" (making sure it's lined up properly), and CAREFULLY reassemble the floppy cable connector. Be as gentle and precise as possible!

If the floppy drive is a compatible drive and isn't broken then everything should now be working.

If the floppy drive now works then make the Gotek DS0 and "Generic Shugart", and you'll probably be in business.

If it's a PC drive and/or you don't want to correct the cable (probably "safer" and easier, albeit not stock) then set the Gotek to DS1 and "Generic Shugart" and connect the striped side to Pin 1, just as I mentioned in the previous post.

Really the only thing making this complicated is because you aren't the original owner and can't verify if anyone has tinkered with it, if it was working, or if the floppy drive/cable is even compatible. If it was known working or at least had documented issues, it'd be a lot easier to troubleshoot.

teevee
Posts: 137
Joined: Sun Nov 03, 2013 7:21 pm

Re: Akai s-3200XL + Gotek + HxC

Post by teevee »

Dear mondo1976,

Thanks for the huge input!

The old floppy drive is called “Samsung SFD-321B” and below is a picture of both cable ends:
Image

I would like to focus on the Gotek floppy and leave the floppy drive behind.

I tried now turning the cable and I get same messages.

I think I better just leave it and conclude that HxC does not work with S-3000 and 3200xl. Going forward moving to SCSI in this case.

mondo1976
Posts: 156
Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2015 3:54 pm

Re: Akai s-3200XL + Gotek + HxC

Post by mondo1976 »

teevee wrote:I think I better just leave it and conclude that HxC does not work with S-3000 and 3200xl. Going forward moving to SCSI in this case.
I'm quite sure that's an erroneous conclusion, but SCSI has its own merits, at any rate.

I'm 98% sure that floppy drive and cable are just something someone took out of a PC and stuffed in there, not having any clue what they're doing.

Feel free to pursue whatever meets your agenda, I just don't want people to think the HxC / HxC Gotek won't or can't work in such situations.

teevee
Posts: 137
Joined: Sun Nov 03, 2013 7:21 pm

Re: Akai s-3200XL + Gotek + HxC

Post by teevee »

mondo1976 wrote:
teevee wrote:I think I better just leave it and conclude that HxC does not work with S-3000 and 3200xl. Going forward moving to SCSI in this case.
I'm quite sure that's an erroneous conclusion, but SCSI has its own merits, at any rate.

I'm 98% sure that floppy drive and cable are just something someone took out of a PC and stuffed in there, not having any clue what they're doing.

Feel free to pursue whatever meets your agenda, I just don't want people to think the HxC / HxC Gotek won't or can't work in such situations.
If I should give this a last chance and only focus on getting the Gotek HxC to work with this Akai s-3200XL, would this then be the solution?:
http://www.ebay.de/itm/291659706585

Please note, even thought that Akai s-3000XL is listed as "working" on our support list (Link), then we still don’t have any finalized proof/solution.

I have been following the two topics through our journey: (None of them are finalized, which is tearing me apart)
http://torlus.com/floppy/forum/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=984
http://torlus.com/floppy/forum/viewtopi ... =28&t=1938

It would be cool with some kind of "knowledge management/Knowledge articles" focused on solutions to avoid too many double topics :D

mondo1976
Posts: 156
Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2015 3:54 pm

Re: Akai s-3200XL + Gotek + HxC

Post by mondo1976 »

Judging from this post, it should work without doing anything particularly special:
http://torlus.com/floppy/forum/viewtopi ... =28&t=1852

Create a blank S3000 image in the HxC software. Make sure the HFE is Auto/Generic Shugart, DS0 jumper, and straight-thru floppy cable should get you where you're going.

The floppy cable should be a standard 34-pin IDC ribbon cable, 2.54mm (aka 0.100") pitch with female connectors on both ends -- no crossover twist! It would be commonly found in Amiga, Atari, and Ensoniq stuff among many other non-PC devices from the '80s and '90s.

PCs are just so common that you'll see tons with the crossover twist, but I wouldn't say the untwisted ones are uncommon or unusual, per se.

I don't know where you're located or how long you want to wait for it to arrive, but these look correct:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/18-inch-34-Pin- ... SwPc9WznR8

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-54mm-Pitch-34 ... SwnbZYD3AU

Given that the HxC works in pretty much everything 3.5" based, and even most other stuff except the most esoteric devices, I'd be very, very surprised if there wasn't a way to get this working.

Jeff
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Re: Akai s-3200XL + Gotek + HxC

Post by Jeff »

You can use this twisted ribbon BUT :

- The twisted part MUST be near the emulator drive, and not near the motherboard like on your picture...
- You must set the jumper M0 instead of S0 on the Gotek (ID3 instead of ID0 on the SD HxC).

Jeff
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Re: Akai s-3200XL + Gotek + HxC

Post by Jeff »

teevee wrote: Please note, even thought that Akai s-3000XL is listed as "working" on our support list (Link), then we still don’t have any finalized proof/solution.
If this is in the list, then i got the confirmation several times from different SD HxC users.
BUT : An Gotek, even with the HxC firmware, IS NOT and will never be an HxC Floppy Emulator... This is a different hardware.
The list refer to the true SD HxC Floppy Emulators. For the Gotek the actual status for all machines is "this may work"...

According to your pictures, your machine have been modified (An Asus floppy ribbon into an Akai machine is something very suspect to me :lol: ) and the floppy drive CAN'T work with a twisted floppy ribbon connected like this... Try my previous advice.

teevee
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Re: Akai s-3200XL + Gotek + HxC

Post by teevee »

Thanks for the inputs.

I ordered a cable from here:
http://www.ebay.de/itm/262080344381

It says in the Ebay status that I should receive it tomorrow. Then lets see what we can do from there! :)

teevee
Posts: 137
Joined: Sun Nov 03, 2013 7:21 pm

Re: Akai s-3200XL + Gotek + HxC

Post by teevee »

I was surprised, the cable was already in the post today, so we can now get forward.

Below is a picture of the new cable installation and we have jumper set on S0.
Image

Our config settings:
Image

We created a “Raw File Format” of Akai S-3000 3´5 HD floppy with “Create Empty Floppy” and saved the file as “DSKA0000”:
Image

Our Akai s-3200XL now gives us the following message on the screen, when we want to “format” the disk.
Image

What would next step/idea be?

Jeff
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Re: Akai s-3200XL + Gotek + HxC

Post by Jeff »

What is this HFE file ?

teevee
Posts: 137
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Re: Akai s-3200XL + Gotek + HxC

Post by teevee »

Jeff wrote:What is this HFE file ?
Hi Jeff,

The .HFE file is our raw Akai s-3000 image generated with the HxCFloppyEmulator software. I packed my USB stick content into a .zip and uploaded to my DropBox if this could be a help for the investigation.
Link: https://www.dropbox.com/s/xyh2cvw1amkwxes/3200xl.zip


I would also like to point out a small observation:
1. when the USB stick is not "in" then we get the message "No disk", which I think is a good sign :roll:
2. The front Gotek light is a bit dimmed and at "action" it turns brighter.

mondo1976
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Re: Akai s-3200XL + Gotek + HxC

Post by mondo1976 »

Try this: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B3OQk ... C0yT1FkeU0

It's the Akai S3000XL OS 2.0 disk. I ripped it with Omniflop and then converted the raw image to HFE with the HxC software. I've included both files because some people might want the Omniflop image to make real floppies with, but also in case I messed up the HFE conversion then you can try it yourself.

It's not tested as I don't have an S-series Akai to try it in, so I can't guarantee anything.

teevee
Posts: 137
Joined: Sun Nov 03, 2013 7:21 pm

Re: Akai s-3200XL + Gotek + HxC

Post by teevee »

mondo1976 wrote:Try this: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B3OQk ... C0yT1FkeU0

It's the Akai S3000XL OS 2.0 disk. I ripped it with Omniflop and then converted the raw image to HFE with the HxC software. I've included both files because some people might want the Omniflop image to make real floppies with, but also in case I messed up the HFE conversion then you can try it yourself.

It's not tested as I don't have an S-series Akai to try it in, so I can't guarantee anything.

I tested your file with jumper on S0 and config file above, I received a "No Disk" message on Akai S-3200XL with your .HFE file.

mondo1976
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Re: Akai s-3200XL + Gotek + HxC

Post by mondo1976 »


teevee
Posts: 137
Joined: Sun Nov 03, 2013 7:21 pm

Re: Akai s-3200XL + Gotek + HxC

Post by teevee »

mondo1976 wrote:Okay, how about this:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B3OQk ... XF1WmRkRGM
This is interesting!

When I boot up my device with those two files, then it udates my Akai s-3200xl from OS version 1.05 to version 2.00:
Image

I´m also able to see the disk under “load”: (Check also the ”Vol”)
Image

If I reboot the machine now with the USB stick, then I get:
Image

When I try to format the disk (to clear the image), then I receive the error above with
Disk Unusable – Bad Directory Area

Questions:
• What happened when you example try to format or save to a “write protected” disk on Akai s-3000XL? (What message do you get in this case?)
• What kind of image did you pack the OS file (.HFE) in? (was it actually a Akai S-900 image?)
• What settings did you make in the config file?

Thoughts:
• The interesting part is that my device can “boot-up” and update the OS, which means/proofs that the disk is “readable”.
• I cannot format our disks, then I receive the -> Disk unusable – Bad Directory Area” < message as above.
• I´m planning to upgrade my devices OS to version 2.0 via eprom as my version 1.05 and this version maybe have some bugs which somehow stand in our way.
• OS 2.0 for Akai S-3000XL is not the same as for S-3200XL.
• I think that we are very close to something stable.

Ideas:
I could maybe try to sample something randomly, rename it, save it on a unformatted raw image and see if I can load/find it with same name on next boot-up.

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