TRS-80 Model 4 probs

HxC Floppy emulator support for all others computers...
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Gazza
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Location: Sydney, OZ

TRS-80 Model 4 probs

Post by Gazza »

G'day Jeff
I've been using a HxC Rev C to archive my collection of TRS-80 software and most of it has worked with zero problems.
BUT
I have one disk that causes the HxC to lockup.
This is a self booting disk that uses it's own I/O routines and is incompatible with any of the TRS-80 operating systems and is stored on the disk in an odd format.
I can make a copy of the disk using the programmes own backup command and this works perfectly when copying from floppy to floppy but when copying from floppy to HxC it will hang with a 'WE' (write error?) showing in the bottom right corner of the display.

By using another programme I was able to make an HFE of the offending disk and have attached it for your inspection.
cheers
Gazza
Attachments
Arranger II.zip
(41.57 KiB) Downloaded 479 times

Jeff
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Re: TRS-80 Model 4 probs

Post by Jeff »

The first track have FM and MFM sectors in the same time ! That's the issue. The Flag of the first track must be changed.

tech.support
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Joined: Tue Nov 24, 2015 10:16 am

Re: TRS-80 Model 4 probs

Post by tech.support »

Jeff - is there some thing in the HxCFloppyEmulator.exe to allow changing track0s0_altencoding and track0s1_altencoding or do we have to do it with a HEX editor ??

Thanks,
Errol Rosser
Hardware Coordinator
SYDTRUG Inc

Gazza
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Re: TRS-80 Model 4 probs

Post by Gazza »

Errol, I used HXD hex editor to alter the header and SuperUtility was able to make a copy of my 80trk NEWDOS/80 mixed density boot disk but the NEWDOS/80 formatter still aborts with a "Motor Slow" error when trying to format the hfe. Diagnostic programmes show the HxC to be spinning at 300RPM

Byte 0016 changed from FFFF to 0002
More research required

evad
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Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2016 6:43 pm

Re: TRS-80 Model 4 probs

Post by evad »

Gazza wrote: but the NEWDOS/80 formatter still aborts with a "Motor Slow" error when trying to format the hfe. Diagnostic programmes show the HxC to be spinning at 300RPM


More research required
Have you had any luck with the "Motor Slow" error when trying to format the hfe.?
I have the same issue on an LNW80. Can read and write to an existing Newdos80 formatted .HFE, but get the "Motor Slow" error when trying to Reformat them.

Jeff
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Re: TRS-80 Model 4 probs

Post by Jeff »

Try to use a faster sdcard. Some sdcards have a poor write speed and may generate these kind of error if you make a low level format.
(Sandisk Extreme Class 10 sdcard are good).

evad
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Re: TRS-80 Model 4 probs

Post by evad »

Jeff,
Thanks for responding.. I am using the ones tested on http://lotharek.pl site - Sandisk 8gb. Ultra SDHC Class 10. They are 40MB/s instead of 30MB/s as shown on the site
How fast do they need to be?
According to Sandisk's site
https://www.sandisk.com/home/memory-cards
Some of the Sandisk Extreme Pro Write speed is 250MB/s
Do we need to be in that range?

evad
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Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2016 6:43 pm

Re: TRS-80 Model 4 probs

Post by evad »

Jeff,
Please note that with Gazza's suggestion to set the RPM to 305 for a raw file format generated hfe file does in fact format without error using NewDos80 V2. Not sure how the RPM value makes a difference Since in the document " SDCard HxC Floppy Emulator HFE File format - Rev.1.1 - 06/20/2012 "
typedef struct picfileformatheader_
unsigned short floppyRPM; // Rotation per minute (Not used by the emulator)

However, I have yet for figure out what values to use in the RAW File that can be formatted by NewDos80 and later be converted to jv3 and opened by trstools 1.12 without invalid format error.

Using a scope looking at the Index pulse from the SD Floppy emulator version F with the latest firmware; it appears to be a bit erratic in terms of timing and does have neg going spikes between the index pulses of very short duration.

looking at the index pulses from a real Tandon drive during format the index pulses are very stable and I can lock on then easily.

To me this seems like a bug since setting a value of 305 for the RPM allows a format operation and 300 results in a "Motor Slow' error.

Gazza
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Location: Sydney, OZ

Re: TRS-80 Model 4 probs

Post by Gazza »

Hi Jeff
Most TRS-80 operating system work perfectly (not all check the speed) but TRSDOS 2.3 aborts formatting with a 'motor fast' error and NEWDOS/80 aborts formatting with a motor slow error. I have tried 2 HxCs on 2 different SYSTEM/80 computers (TRS-80 Model 1 clone) and a TRS-80 4P running in model 3 mode. The result is the same in all cases.

I disabled the code that checks the motor speed in TRSDOS 2.3 and it now formats perfectly.

The problem with NEWDOS is across the board. I get the same results in both Model 1 and Model 3 NEWDOS80 and NEWDOS90
In Model one mode the HxC will format the first 5 sectors of the single density track 0 and the front side of the double density track 1 and then abort with a 'motor slow' error when trying to format the other side of track 1.
In the Model 3 it formats the front side of track 0, displays the 'motor slow' error, verifies the first 18 sectors OK and then fails. NOTE - Model 3 is all double density NOT mixed density like the Model 1.

Numerous diagnostic programmes show the HxC to be spinning at the correct speed.

Using the HxC 'Load RAW Image' command I created a 305RPM blank. This 'seems' to work OK on my SYSTEM-80 providing the computer is running at standard CPU speed. Strangely, having done a successful format at standard CPU speed it will then reformat at any CPU speed!!
I've attached a few HFE files for your inspection. That didn't work - file size too large.
Let me know your preferred email address and I'll send you the images - file size is just over 1 meg.

I wanted to try a class 10 card today but even though the card works OK in my camera it will not play with Windoze.
Will try another card during the week.

cheers
Gazza

evad
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Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2016 6:43 pm

Re: TRS-80 Model 4 probs

Post by evad »

Gazza,
Looking at the index pulse with a scope during normal read write operation does mimic a tandon well, However looking at the index pulse during the format ( 305 Rpm so we can see the 40 track operation ) shows a different story. As I said before the pulse stream is a bit erratic and there are very quick neg pulses in between the larger index pulses, however after a few revs the index pulse is held down for over 10x the normal pulse width. Using a slower SD card I believe yields a longer width during the time it is held down. Hence maybe this is how the emulator throttles the WD controller.
While reading and writing or simply enabling the drive select we get normal index pulses so any software looking at the emulator will say 300 rpm. During format this long ( possibly throttling method ) pulse will make NewDos/Trsdos think the speed is off because looking at total time / number of index pulses will show slow speed. I suspect trsdos incorrectly reports motor fast or see these spikes where Newdos doesn't.
When you disabled the code in trsdos to check for drive speed validity and then you could format without error makes perfect sense now....

I haven't got any answers from Jeff on how fast of a Sandisk Extreme card I need so I have ordered a 90MB/s card and hope that will work. the 250MB/s are over $80


Also, the deeper I get into the operations details of how this emulator works the more Impressed I am. This is a very clever piece of work....

snhirsch
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Re: TRS-80 Model 4 probs

Post by snhirsch »

evad wrote:Jeff,
Since in the document " SDCard HxC Floppy Emulator HFE File format - Rev.1.1 - 06/20/2012 "
typedef struct picfileformatheader_
unsigned short floppyRPM; // Rotation per minute (Not used by the emulator)
Where can I find this document? I checked out the libhfe portion of the sources and could find nothing in terms of documentation. If it's there I'll feel embarrassed.

Jeff
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Re: TRS-80 Model 4 probs

Post by Jeff »

snhirsch wrote:
evad wrote:Jeff,
Since in the document " SDCard HxC Floppy Emulator HFE File format - Rev.1.1 - 06/20/2012 "
typedef struct picfileformatheader_
unsigned short floppyRPM; // Rotation per minute (Not used by the emulator)
Where can I find this document? I checked out the libhfe portion of the sources and could find nothing in terms of documentation. If it's there I'll feel embarrassed.

https://hxc2001.com/floppy_drive_emulat ... l#download

https://hxc2001.com/download/floppy_driv ... format.pdf

https://hxc2001.com/download/floppy_driv ... G_file.pdf

https://hxc2001.com/download/floppy_driv ... s_mode.pdf

evad
Posts: 25
Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2016 6:43 pm

Re: TRS-80 Model 4 probs

Post by evad »

snhirsch wrote:
evad wrote:Jeff,
Since in the document " SDCard HxC Floppy Emulator HFE File format - Rev.1.1 - 06/20/2012 "
typedef struct picfileformatheader_
unsigned short floppyRPM; // Rotation per minute (Not used by the emulator)
Where can I find this document? I checked out the libhfe portion of the sources and could find nothing in terms of documentation. If it's there I'll feel embarrassed.
I found it Here:
https://hxc2001.com/download/floppy_driv ... format.pdf

Dave

evad
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Re: TRS-80 Model 4 probs

Post by evad »

Bump...
evad wrote:Jeff,
Thanks for responding.. I am using the ones tested on http://lotharek.pl site - Sandisk 8gb. Ultra SDHC Class 10. They are 40MB/s instead of 30MB/s as shown on the site
How fast do they need to be?
According to Sandisk's site
https://www.sandisk.com/home/memory-cards
Some of the Sandisk Extreme Pro Write speed is 250MB/s
Do we need to be in that range?
Jeff,
Any Idea on how fast do they need to be?

Jeff
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Re: TRS-80 Model 4 probs

Post by Jeff »

evad wrote: Jeff,
Any Idea on how fast do they need to be?
No idea at all for your own case but the sd in the first page of this documentation is pretty good :

https://hxc2001.com/download/floppy_driv ... al_ENG.pdf

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