Apple IIe with HDDD and HxC

HxC Floppy emulator support for all others computers...
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800XL
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Joined: Sat Apr 20, 2013 7:30 pm

Apple IIe with HDDD and HxC

Post by 800XL » Sun Apr 21, 2013 11:47 am

Hello there!

I'm trying to hook up my recently acquired Apple IIe with the SD-Floppy-Emulator, but I'm running into problems. Most probably it's just a question of (raw-) converting existing Apple disk images.

I know the Apple disk format is 35 tracks/13 or 16 sectors/256 bytes/300 rpm, but I have no idea about the other settings such as track type, bit rate, interleave, skew etc.

Here's what I'm hooking the HxC up with:

http://www.bootzero.com/HDDD_A2_v1.2/HDDD_A2v1.2.html (You can find a user manual there as well.)

I'm pretty sure this would work. From the photo you can see that the HxC is actually reading from Disc Drive A. (Tried all the various jumper setting as well, of course.)

I've uploaded two Apple II disk images here (re-directs to Wetransfer): http://tinyurl.com/csej2t7

Maybe one of you can point me into the right direction as to what setting I should use when converting these images to .hfe.

Please also refer to:

http://justsolve.archiveteam.org/wiki/A ... ector_disk
http://justsolve.archiveteam.org/wiki/A ... ector_disk

Any help would be appreciated!

Thanks,

Frank
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Jeff
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Re: Apple IIe with HDDD and HxC

Post by Jeff » Sun Apr 21, 2013 1:13 pm


800XL
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Re: Apple IIe with HDDD and HxC

Post by 800XL » Sun Apr 21, 2013 3:32 pm

Jeff wrote: Waiting for feedbacks.
Hi Jeff!

I just tried your .hfe image, but it's just the same as before. :(

Any more ideas?

Jeff
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Re: Apple IIe with HDDD and HxC

Post by Jeff » Sun Apr 21, 2013 3:59 pm

800XL wrote:
Jeff wrote: Waiting for feedbacks.
Hi Jeff!

I just tried your .hfe image, but it's just the same as before. :(

Any more ideas?
I have just read this in the HDDD A2 user manual :
The original Disk II is a double density (DD), 300 RPM device. Double density cor-
responds to 250 kbit/sec transfer rate. Apple II computers use a form of Group Code
Recording (GCR) encoding invented by Steve Wozniak and their diskettes are incompat-
ible with other platforms.
3.5" high density (HD) drives work also at 300 RPM, but at an increased transfer rate
of 500 kbit/sec. Of course the increased capacity per track cannot be used and at the
same time still be compatible with Apple II disk controllers and software, so HDDD A2
employs additional FM encoding on top of the Apple's GCR to satisfy magnetic media
requirements.

HDDD A2 also does the necessary signal conversions between Apple II and IBM PC
compatibles' oppy drives.
Each \half" track of Disk II is mapped to a separate track on the 3.5" HD diskette.
Thus any standard Apple II operating system such as DOS 3.3, ProDOS, CP/M and
UCSD will actually use only every other track on the 3.5" HD diskette.
The image that i provided to you is a true GCR disk. But in fact the HDDD A2 add a FM layer.
So there is some software to write to add this FM layer. Should not be a big problem, but i need more details on how this FM encoding is done.

800XL
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Joined: Sat Apr 20, 2013 7:30 pm

Re: Apple IIe with HDDD and HxC

Post by 800XL » Sun Apr 21, 2013 4:07 pm

Is there anything I can do to help?

Jeff
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Re: Apple IIe with HDDD and HxC

Post by Jeff » Sun Apr 21, 2013 5:02 pm

800XL wrote:Is there anything I can do to help?
Just retry this :
http://hxc2001.com/download/floppy_driv ... xC_Try.zip

i just added 2 images with encoded with the guessed HDDD A2 format.

800XL
Posts: 12
Joined: Sat Apr 20, 2013 7:30 pm

Re: Apple IIe with HDDD and HxC

Post by 800XL » Sun Apr 21, 2013 5:22 pm

SUCCESS!!! :D

Double step it is!

So, how do I convert A2 images now? Do you need to write an update for the Emulator Software? And will this work with all A2 images or just with .nib files?

Anyway thanks a lot, Jeff! *thumbs up*

Jeff
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Re: Apple IIe with HDDD and HxC

Post by Jeff » Sun Apr 21, 2013 5:38 pm

800XL wrote:SUCCESS!!! :D

Double step it is!

So, how do I convert A2 images now? Do you need to write an update for the Emulator Software? And will this work with all A2 images or just with .nib files?

Anyway thanks a lot, Jeff! *thumbs up*
This is a good news. So i will have to get an HDDD A2 ;).

Yes i will have to update the software. actually NIB files can be loaded. For the dsk images , i will have to add all the GCR track encoding layer.

Question : Are you developer ?

800XL
Posts: 12
Joined: Sat Apr 20, 2013 7:30 pm

Re: Apple IIe with HDDD and HxC

Post by 800XL » Sun Apr 21, 2013 6:28 pm

This is a good news. So i will have to get an HDDD A2 ;).
I got mine here: http://www.ebay.com/itm/HDDD-A2-v1-2-3- ... 1002888642

And no, I'm no developer, just a happy HxC user with a bunch of retro machines. :D
Yes i will have to update the software. actually NIB files can be loaded. For the dsk images , i will have to add all the GCR track encoding layer.
Will you keep me up to date?

Thanks again,

Frank

Jeff
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Re: Apple IIe with HDDD and HxC

Post by Jeff » Mon Apr 22, 2013 10:39 pm

Yes sure.

For the moment try this :

http://hxc2001.com/download/floppy_driv ... DDD_A2.zip

Some images to test + the dll allowing you to convert NIB files to HFE for the HDDD A2.
Just replace the regular dll by this one.

Let me know if all is ok.

800XL
Posts: 12
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Re: Apple IIe with HDDD and HxC

Post by 800XL » Tue Apr 23, 2013 8:42 pm

Hi Jeff!

Just tried the images you sent. Sadly, none of them worked. :(

- Disks won't boot at all (though the Apple is trying to read, track counter stays at 000) or just a few tracks.
- Disks will go back and forth between tracks (or sometimes stay on one track, while the HxC sounds as it was skipping tracks).
- Some disks were loading so far as a cracker intro or up to the game's starting screen, but graphics were distorted in all cases, or the Apple just crashed.

I tried to convert some .nib images myself, same result.

Would you like me to upload a video so you can see for yourself?

Karateka, which you sent on Sunday, is the only one without issues.

Any ideas what went wrong?

Jeff
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Re: Apple IIe with HDDD and HxC

Post by Jeff » Tue Apr 23, 2013 11:46 pm

800XL wrote:Hi Jeff!

Just tried the images you sent. Sadly, none of them worked. :(

- Disks won't boot at all (though the Apple is trying to read, track counter stays at 000) or just a few tracks.
- Disks will go back and forth between tracks (or sometimes stay on one track, while the HxC sounds as it was skipping tracks).
- Some disks were loading so far as a cracker intro or up to the game's starting screen, but graphics were distorted in all cases, or the Apple just crashed.

I tried to convert some .nib images myself, same result.

Would you like me to upload a video so you can see for yourself?

Karateka, which you sent on Sunday, is the only one without issues.

Any ideas what went wrong?
i really thought to have solved this issue...
Karateka was generated from an dsk file. All tracks are aligned.
Others files probably come from disk dumps. the tracks are not aligned. Should not be an problem but there is something wrong somewhere.
Some more debug to do ... ;)

800XL
Posts: 12
Joined: Sat Apr 20, 2013 7:30 pm

Re: Apple IIe with HDDD and HxC

Post by 800XL » Wed Apr 24, 2013 12:29 am

Jeff wrote:
800XL wrote:Hi Jeff!

Just tried the images you sent. Sadly, none of them worked. :(

- Disks won't boot at all (though the Apple is trying to read, track counter stays at 000) or just a few tracks.
- Disks will go back and forth between tracks (or sometimes stay on one track, while the HxC sounds as it was skipping tracks).
- Some disks were loading so far as a cracker intro or up to the game's starting screen, but graphics were distorted in all cases, or the Apple just crashed.

I tried to convert some .nib images myself, same result.

Would you like me to upload a video so you can see for yourself?

Karateka, which you sent on Sunday, is the only one without issues.

Any ideas what went wrong?
i really thought to have solved this issue...
Karateka was generated from an dsk file. All tracks are aligned.
Others files probably come from disk dumps. the tracks are not aligned. Should not be an problem but there is something wrong somewhere.
Some more debug to do ... ;)
I'm pretty sure you'll solve this issue in no time! :wink:

.dsk might be a good idea anyway, since most disk images are in that format.

Is there any way of getting to grips with .do. and .po files as well, while you're at it? Maybe this can shed some light on the various A2 formats:
006- What are DSK, PO, DO, HDV, NIB, and 2MG "disk image" files and
how do I use them?

A "disk image" is typically a file containing every data byte on a diskette--
i.e. Catalog tracks, files, DOS (if present) etc.. One kind of disk image, NIB, tries
to preserve all disk information (e.g. sector headers, sync bytes, etc.).

Apple II emulators running on a PC, Mac, etc. treat disk image files like diskettes.
Disk image files are also a handy way to archive Apple II disks on hard disk and to
maintain wares on ftp and other download sites.


DSK's (.dsk, .do, .po, and .hdv files)

DSK (usually .dsk) files are disk image files used by popular Apple II emulators
like AppleWin to run A2 wares on the PC or Mac. Usually, they are images of
Apple 5.25" game, utility, etc. diskettes. A standard 5.25" DSK file is 143,360 bytes
in length:

1 side x 35 Tracks/side x 16 Sectors/Trk x 256 Bytes/Sec = 143,360 Bytes.

DSK files of 800k 3.5" disks (819,200 bytes) are much less common.

Data in a DSK disk image file can be arranged in the sector order used by DOS 3.3
or in the sector order used by ProDOS. The filename suffixes relate chiefly to how data
is arranged in the file:

.dsk- technically, this may be an image which has its data in DOS 3.3 or ProDOS order.
(The emulator program is supposed to check a .dsk file to determine the ordering used.)
It has become standard practice to use the .dsk suffix for only DOS 3.3 order files.

.do- an image which is in DOS 3.3 order. This suffix is seldom used today. DOS 3.3
order image file names usually end with ".dsk".

.po- an image which is in ProDOS order. If an image is in ProDOS order, its name
should end with ".po" (not ".dsk") to avoid confusion.

.hdv- typically an image 800k (819,200 bytes) or greater in size in ProDOS order. An
HDV image is intended for use as a virtual hard disk by various Apple II and IIgs
emulators (e.g. Apple Oasis). The IIgs program ASIMOV2 can create .hdv files
(select "Raw image"). The file name should end with ".hdv".

Note: data order does not relate to whether a disk image is a DOS 3.3 or ProDOS
disk. In fact, nearly all 5.25" disk image files (of both DOS 3.3 and ProDOS disks) are
in DOS 3.3 order; and, DOS 3.3 order is the default setting for image creation programs
like DSK2FILE and ASIMOV and the transfer/creation program ADT.
A bit of an off-topic thingie:

In the past I was pestering you with a bunch of emails, but I don't remember whether or not I'd sent you *this* nice and easy access to the TOSEC archive: https://archive.org/details/tosec

Highy recommended!

800XL
Posts: 12
Joined: Sat Apr 20, 2013 7:30 pm

Re: Apple IIe with HDDD and HxC

Post by 800XL » Wed May 01, 2013 11:28 am

BUMP! :D

Any news?

Jeff
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Re: Apple IIe with HDDD and HxC

Post by Jeff » Thu May 02, 2013 7:44 am

800XL wrote:BUMP! :D

Any news?
Quite busy actually. :?

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